DMSFS Forum

Andy W. made this suggestion:

I would like to have a discussion soon on publicity. Primarily, I'd like to know if the club has its own publicity person or committee -- someone responsible for promoting the club around town and the state to both draw in new members and to make our presence known. If we do not, then I'd like to discuss the possibility of creating an ongoing publicity committee or individual. This is not a proposal yet, but I would like to simply start discussion on what the need is, and what ideas people have on it.

Some things that I'd like to see this person/committee do:

- create and execute a publicity plan for the club
- be responsible for publicizing the conventions and other activities the
club is involved in (instead of a con needing its own publicity department
head)
- create and maintain the club publicity packet
- set up outreach opportunities (hopefully someday we'll have an outreach
committee to do this, but for now we just need someone to coordinate this)

On 1/27/06 @ 9:31PM this discussion thread was started regarding DMSFS meetings. I am posting all of the comments related to that subject here. Please read them. There are many items addressed here, I have tried to group them a little.

At Friday’s meeting, the Demicon concom mentioned a plan to draw more young people to the con. That is a great thing, and it ties in with some thoughts and feelings that Laurre and I have been having about the club meetings that I’d like to bring up to people. I’m sure it’s been discussed before, but
hey, I've been here long enough to cause more trouble now.

Primarily, once we draw in these people, what will we do to keep them involved and interested in the club in between Demicons? I mean, I know we have the SACC and other occasional fun happenings, but what about the meetings themselves? Is the purpose of the bi-weekly meeting truly for business only? For that matter, neither one of us has really discovered theactual purpose of the club – is it to generate and promote interest in SF&F or is it to run cons?

The current meetings seem so much like SFLIS meetings were back when most of what we talked about was ICON. New students would come to one meeting, see nothing to hold their interest, and that was the last we saw of them. The membership was dwindling and meetings were getting short. When we separated the con business from the SF&F group, then it spurred the club into a new
direction and I heard that SFLIS was doing quite well.

I’m not suggesting that all con business be avoided at the meetings, because part of the club’s purpose is to run the cons. But is that the _sole_ purpose? For me, I would like to see department head meetings separated from club meetings. One of the reasons is that I want to take the role of
Demicon publicity further and include club publicity, and it is hard to advertise "Every second and fourth Friday we meet here… well, except for when we meet here…". The department head meeting can occur after, somewhere else, can’t it? We all go to eat somewhere else after the meetings anyway. The other reason is that the DMSFS meeting tends to get swallowed up by the
department head meeting, as in tonight when I didn’t even realize we had gone into the next meeting.

But back to the meetings themselves. I know there has been some effort to bring up topics like new books, movies, and such, but it doesn’t seem like there is ever very much of that SF&F activity before things go full bore into con business. If the meetings are designed to be business only, then I
’ll shut up, but we really do need to have more going on in the meetings, and on a regular basis, to hold the interest of these new people (and the old ones, for that matter). Heh, more than “well, if you can make it through the meeting then we’ll all go eat”.

I know it takes more than just talking about it, and I’d be happy to discuss ideas with anyone (book reports, informal movie reviews, the article of the month, artist of the month – I mean, what interests us?). One other idea comes from looking at other clubs around town, like the Astronomical
Society. They meet only one a month. We wouldn’t need to do that, but what if we were able to use the first meeting of the month as a business meeting, and the second meeting as a SF&F special interest meeting with very little business? That would help with our problem of having only an hour before losing our meeting space.

Wow, I'm glad to see I'm not the only longwinded e-mail writer in the world (I get kidded a lot about that at work, so I can't resist the chance to kid someone else about it) I think it was Blaise Pascal who said something like "I would have written less but I didn't have time." I resemble that remark....

Seriously, though....as someone new to DMSFS meetings (but not to Demicon, having attended quite a few all the way back to #1) I would have to concur with Andy. I've continued attending meetings because I enjoy the company of the folks in DMSFS (and have known a few on and off for many years and been glad to re-make their acquaitance, and to make new acquaintances).

I believe Andy has hit the nail squarely on the head. If we don't bring more SF&F stuff and less business into the club meetings, you're never going to grow the club... especially younger members. I'm approaching being an old fart, and have worked on clubs and boards before so I know the business is necessary and vital....but as a relative newbie attending DMSFS meetings, I've been rather disappointed in the lack of anything BUT business. I've enjoyed the dinners far more than the meetings, frankly. So I was pleasantly surprised at the book discussion at the meeting two weeks ago, and enjoyed it very much.

Anyway, that's my two centavos. I'll be happy to help out in the Cons and in DMSFS as much as I can, and also in discussion/ presentation topics for meetings.

I'll suggest a topic: anyone interested in e-Books? (Electronic books and book readers) I've been reading mostly e-Book versions of SF&F for sevearal years now on various devices and could briefly discuss the hardware and sources of e-Books at a meeting if there is any interest.

Yes, going on a touch more on what Andy said (which is repetitive, since we both were presenting in his email...)

I have been a member of three other Des Moines clubs: the Des Moines Astronomical Society, the Des Moines Lapidary Society, and the Mineral Society of Iowa. The latter does not hold conventions at all; the former has an ongoing pledge to the public to put on public nights at our observatory in Ashton-Wildwood Park, and DMLS gives an annual rock, mineral and gemstone show open to the public, which is getting bigger every year.

Ok. All three organizations meet ONCE a month. Department heads in charge of public night concerns in the case of DMAS or the gem show in the case of DSMLS meet on a chosen night OTHER than the monthly club meeting.

During those club meetings, yes. There were "we have this much in the treasury" kind of informational statements made, for of course members need to know such things. But all such "business" was speedily presented and then put aside; it belonged primarily in the business meetings, held separately. In fact such things were pared down in the business meetings, the gist of which was then presented to the club during the club meetings. (As well as being put in the newsletter).

But after said speedy presentation, on we then went to things of mutual interest for the club members as a whole. In the case of DMAS, it was, "hey, I got this great new objective..." or "I want to build a scope, who wants to help," or "there's a star party coming up in Illinois, who's going?" and that sort of thing. Or someone would present a topic they learned over the past month, to educate the others. How to begin in astrophotography, for example. In the case of DSMLS it was "here's some techniques for polishing cabs I've learned" or "hey, we're going on a rock hounding trip for agate" or "anyone wanna make plans to go fossil hunting along the river?" or "did anyone read the article about azurite-malachite in Rocks and Gems mag?" or whatever. Topics of interest to the members of the club.

In the case of both of these clubs, word spread. They grew. I watched DMAS grow from about 10 or less diehards to well over 35 regularly attending members, with too many supporting members at large to count. DSMLS grew too; it's reeeeeeally big.

The point is, the club was behaving like a club: members getting together to discuss their common interest, be that interest things of an astronomical nature or a geological one.

Once a month.

So, yeah, since two Fridays a month are already "slated," why not make one of them a usiness/dept. head meeting, and the other a science fiction club one?

I'm for putting this up to a vote.

And yeah, Bill, the e-book is a good place to start. ANYTHING book... personally I would like to hear more about certain authors. Example: I've HEARD of this one or that one, but haven't read his or her works... so who has? How are the books? What are they about? So much better than going to the bookstore, picking up a book to try, reading the backjacket, going, "ok," then finding it's crap.

Then there are games and movies and... well, I'm sure we can all come up with enough things of interest to each of us personally to motivate/educate each other at such a meeting!

Or maybe we can all write a book together or something. Or do more public-orientated things. I'm ready for suggestions: go give a read at a library, go to a school, whatever? Surely we can discuss possibilities.

After all, is not our motto: "Read. Imagine. Think?"

Laurre

1. There is a significant number of people interested in DMSFS who feel the meetings do not satisfy their needs for participation.

2. The location of the meetings is problematic due in variable parts to: a)time limit at community center, b) changing venue; c) cost of dinner with meeting; d) layout of meeting space; e) accessibility to meetings, including the occasional out-of-area meeting.

3. People want an option to participate in con issues separate from their option to participate in the club meetings.

Personally, I like the fact that the club is invited to participate in con items. While concoms have volunteered, or been drafted, to do the major work and should have freedom to make decisions, I have lived places where the local SF&F club and concoms are so desperate as to be nothing more than entwined fiscal entities. Separating the "fun" and the "business" meetings is common but, as others have mentioned, they do not need to be totally exclusive.

Access to club meetings is more complex. People who drive want a place to park, but if the club wants younger participants and college students, there needs to be consideration as to how they can reach and leave the meetings. Plus, there are a few people in the state who keep working to provide a no-car option to urban and suburban residents beyond the workday commute. Personally, I want a place that is accessible by bus. I already have to avoid participation in other groups and events because they are nowhere near bus lines or happen on Sunday.

1. Someone needs to identify what changes require a change to the rules. E.g., separating business and activity meetings. How/when does this change occur?

2. Does someone want to present - say half an hour - at a February meeting? Here's a perfect topic: What is costuming and why do people do it? Is it the displaying? The designing? The sewing? I have friends who go to conventions primarily for the masquerades, I, though, enjoy the philosophy
of SF&F and masquerades usually disappoint me because they add nothing to my understanding of what a future world would/could be like culturally. What goes into deciding what costume to create or to replicate? What goes into deciding a performance theme?

3. As summer approaches, and if there is a picnic place at the park on 4th Street north of the community center, would people entertain a picnic meal after a meeting? This is offered mostly in jest at trying to think of restaurants that fall into the parking/other access criteria that have enough room for a group. I'll let people more familiar with the area offer more serious solutions to meeting and to dining venues.

4. The parade in Beaverdale was a good club project. There is the performance troupe. Maybe we could work with the public and school libraries and offer a reading hour once a month or every other month. I would say if somebody has an idea and would like to manage it, just run it by the club for official sanction and recruit members for the project.

For a fun meeting, on Fridays that Valley Junction has its gallery crawls, why not have an art discussion at the DMSFS meeting and tack it on to publicity about the art crawl?

I've been thinking all day about why previous attempts at making changes to our meeting format have been unsuccessfull. Unlike David Letterman I like to cut straight to the chase. I think the number one reason our previous efforts have failed can be attibuted to the failure of one person to follow through with their responsibilities and that person is Somebody.

Somebody was supposed to figure out how we could make meetings fun. Somebody was supposed to arrange for activities on the fun nights and Somebody was supposed to lead the book discussion.

Guess what folks? I checked our database and Somebody isn't even a DMSFS member! No wonder they never followed through.

All kidding aside I think as we go forward in exploring this important issue we need to keep some things in mind.

First, there will not be a perfect solution. Some compromise will be necessary. Old PT had the right of it you simply can't please all the people all the time. We do however have _lots_ of room for improvement, and that's what we need to work on.

Secondly, as you are making suggestions for changes and/or activities ask yourself are you willing and/or able to see your suggestion through? Some times we find ourselves with an idea we lack the skills, knowledge or experience to do ourselves. That doesn't mean we shouldn't suggest the idea, but do try and think. If you don't want to do this thing why would anyone else?

Which brings me to my final point, what _are_ you willing to do to help make these changes happen? We can't keep asking this phantom Somebody to do our work for us. There are some club members, myself for one, who are up to our necks and then some in club business. We need help!!! Trust me none of us want to do it all by ourselves.

Keep the ideas rolling we're a bunch of smart people I'm sure we can figure this thing out.

Sallie

I agree that it is somebody's fault! :-) In reality there are some people ( I for one) that just don't have much to offer in the way of knowledge for program ideas yet would love to hear other people share their knowledge with us. My biggest interest in science fiction is the science part of it more then the fiction, but am not knowledgeable enough to give a talk on any one thing. I don't have much time to read so don't really have a favorite author, so am no good at book discussions. I feel I really do not have much to give, which is why personally I haven't volunteered to do anything.

Candy

People, we don't have to be rigidly structured. This can just flow, and thus "happen." I've seen it happen before in the Des Moines Astronomical Society... when it was allowed to just happen.

I am willing to look into finding a place for a "splinter group" to move to do just what it is we desire to do: discuss things science/science fiction, in all it's permutations, and leave the business of running Demicon to those who have always done it, and who seem to use the meetings primarily for this purpose.

Laurre

Yes.

I, personally, am willing to take onto myself all that is necessary to allow the developement of "business scienc fiction" to flower in the shade of "business Demicon."

If no one is willing to take up the reins, I will be this mysterious SOMEBODY. I have some ideas, I think there are latent ideas available, waiting to be tapped.

I just think said ideas need a venue.

Laurre

Define, clear and concisely, "club business."

From what I understand the by-laws are conflicting with the club's statement of purpose.

Laurre

You don't know how long I tried to find the Desmoines area fan club . I've heard very little that would get interested enough to join . I'm sorry , but i am an avid reader and have not once heard the word book brought up on this sight until now . Best of wishes .

I've been skimming over all the chat items re DMSFS activity and meeting formats and I have to agree with Andy, Bill, and LarryP. I've attended DMSFS meetings myself off and on (mostly off) for years and usually there is never anything that I find even remotely interesting. When I first heard about DMSFS, I thought (or hoped) that it would be something like a book/film discussion group, or perhaps structured something like a college intro to SF&F course. I have never found this to be the case. In my experience, DMSFS meetings are about events, only events, and nothing but events (for events, read "cons"). This is one of the big reasons I quit the SCA--it was concerned with virtually nothing but events and recruiting, almost never with historical study or research even though it purported to promote those two things. I think only once in many, many years of DMSFS meetings did I ever hear anyone discuss a SF book. I don't really give a rip about cons and in fact I'll go out on a limb and (probably) commit sacriledge here and say I'd be much more happy with DMSFS if it completed washed its hands of cons altogether and never held another DemiCon. Then it could get back to the activities I always thought it should be doing instead. As is, I find little reason currently to be happy with or interested in DMSFS. (I speak as one of those potential new members you'd like
to hang onto.)
~~Randy

Ok, I shall repeat myself, heh, hopefully not ad nauseum.

When I first started come to DMSFS I also was curious as to what was happening. All I with at that time (and doggedly, still do!) was an interest in science fiction. I do not adhere strictly to reading books, but I like movies and role playing as well. The field, after all, is big.

So I was eager and anxious to see what the club was all about, and what was presented in its meetings. At that time, I think Josh had a half-hour book reading/discussion session which went on before the actual meeting was held. I didn't really get a chance to get involved in that before (for whatever reasons) it kinda died.

Meetings then seemed to be all con-oriented, as they seem to be now. I will admit the primary reason I come when I do is to be with friends I've made in the club, and yes while making friends goes hand in hand (unspoken) with any stated purposes of any club, it's not the sole reason for a club's existence.

From what I understand, a club is a group of people with like interests who gather regularly to share said interests with each other. A formal club has rules n' regs and by-laws and whatever; an informal one doesn't necessarily have to.

If anyone is interested in getting a little splinter group going somewhere, I'm willing to try. As I said earlier, I think the best option is simply to have one meeting a month oriented toward "sci-fi" stuff in general, be it books, e-books, mags, movies, announcements of happenings in the scifi world, gaming, showing off our own latent and unexplored talents (heh), planning and plotting or whatever. The other Friday can be devoted to business.

If anyone wants to find out what's happening regarding said business, he or she can go to that meeting.

Comments, thoughts? And to Larry and Randy I say, "Please don't disappear..."

Laurre

I agree we need something else at the meetings Laurre how about you give us a talk about what planets are going to be most visible on a certain meeting night? Then those wishing to could come on down to our place and view them. We could make it potluck. Just a thought. I think this all became more of an issue when Con Com started adding the department head meetings to the reg club meetings. I think we should set aside the 1st 1/2 hr to club business and the 2nd 1/2 to a planed activity. People could volunteer to start a discussion of the favorite author/ artist/ director or whatever. This also might give us ideas for future guest for future cons.

Just a Thought

Candy

Good thoughts, Candy. Heh, I wouldn't mind letting y'all know what's up where and when.

Here's another thought along those lines: I think another problem we have is that we lack a GOOD place to meet, for our current location is one where our time is limited. We have an aura of "scheduling" things hanging over our heads, I think, simply because our time is short and must be used wisely.

I don't want to bore people by repeatedly referring to the Astronomical Society, but hey. I'm gonna anyway: our club has its own observatory, and has access to the Drake Observatory in the winter. We have no time constraints. We don't revolve around going out to eat afterward, either. The meeting begins at 7:00, and goes until whenever. Sometimes we potluck, sometimes if it runs short we all go out to eat, or some do and others don't.

The atmosphere is much more free, which in turn is much more conducive toward encouraging members to open their mouths and offer up whatever it is that's on their minds. I think we spend perhaps 15 minutes or so on real club business, and then the rest is open forum. You'd be surprised how that open forum gets filled, too.

But I think a lot is because we have the TIME to relax and act as a group who are getting together because they share common interests and desire to do so. We're not rushed.

I wonder if there are any other options out there for our club to change it's meeting place? I'll go feel out some people at Drake, maybe we can use the auditorium at Harvey Ingham. I have no idea what the response would be, but it's worth a try.

Does anyone else have any contacts or strings they could possibly pull?

(Candy, I like the idea of hanging out at your place in the summer. We could grill, and make it an impromptu star party-book discussion-filk, and boy howdy would your horses get entertained!!! And before anyone starts objecting that it's too far away, my rebuttal is that in the case of DMAS, our observatory is in Ashton-Wildwood park up in the vicinity of Baxter. WE all get together up there, gas price increase or no, because again, we want to. We have been known to carpool!)

Laurre

Some very good ideas Laurre. I think Drake would be a great place to meet if we could. Its pretty central for most and on the bus line.

Candy

Location of meetings: Unless folks want to begin paying dues, we're limited to free locations that we can meet. University organizations have access to on campus facilities that we do not. For years we've met at my place or game shops before settling on the Community Center. Each location has it's problems. Private homes, such as mine, often put new folks off. The community center or places of business usually have limited hours. If someone has access to space that could handle a group our size, please speak up.

SF Discussions at DMSFS meetings. We had discussions years ago. But when both Mike and Josh tried books discussions over quite a few months, hardly anyone showed up. If folks want discussions, there needs to be a commitment to attend and discuss.

Convention business at DMSFS meetings. It's only been the last three years, since DC 15, that department head meetings have moved to normal DMSFS meetings. Before that, Department head meetings were held at other times and other locations. The one exception to this has been the month prior to DemiCon. That month has always been dominated by convention business. Hosting DemiCon is one of the reasons for DMSFS existence. If you have no interest in DemiCon, I fear you won't be able to avoid it entirely. While DMSFS was formed to create an SF community in Central Iowa, an SF convention was discussed, literally from day one. Also, beginning in September, Department Head meetings for DemiCon 18 (2007) will not be held during DMSFS meetings.

Sallie probably put it best in that folks often complain that there's nothing interesting going on, but then no one steps forward to do anything. Of all the messages that have been posted about this, I believe that only Laurre has actually offered to lead an activity.

There have also been outside activities such as visiting the Omaha Zoo, marching in a parade, and volunteering at community activities.

Keep the discussion going, but please make suggestions that you can help with. Otherwise I fear that these discussions will go on, and on, and on...

Meeting places are an issue not just for DMSFS (and not just in Des Moines). Years ago, in places where I lived, there were always community rooms in bookstores, libraries, or other places that meetings of assorted groups could be held. Wal-Mart has driven more than just businesses out of local neighborhoods, it's also driven the groups that used to meet in those businesses away. Restaurants often provide space, which is one reason why many groups find it easiest to hold their meetings in restaurants. This doesn't help DMSFS find a perfect meeting place, as though there would be any guarantee that such a perfect place would continue to exist for long.

I'm not sure how applicable the Astronomical Society is to DMSFS, at least in terms of interest sharing, unless participants break astronomy down by planet type, star type, quasars, galaxies, or any other subspecialties. In SF&F, there are special interest groups who do not necessarily share interests with other special interest groups (e.g., anime, hard science fiction short stories, romance fantasy novels, space opera movies, costuming) In many ways, I expect DemiCon serves as the shared interest of these sub-groups.

Websites can be a pain to update so I'm not going to be critical of a site that is run by volunteers. Nevertheless, it was not until Sallie's e-mail that I knew the SACCs included discussions of the group's policies and practices. There was no indication, either on the website or in Paradox, about when business would be conducted, nor was there a report afterwards, just pictures. Thus, even if someone wanted to propose a change, it would be impossible unless he or she already knew what to expect and when.

If Jon will forgive me for bringing his turf into the discussion, there is always Paradox to share news or comments about SF&F. Which reminds me, I need to send Jon an e-mail about content for the Feb. 10 deadline for Paradox.

Rose

Can someone remind me why we stopped meeting at the Franklin Avenue Library? I don't recall, and neither does Mark. I'll stop by tomorrow and ask at the Community Center next door what their hours are, but I have a sneaking suspicion that they'd want rent and that we may face the same hours limitations that we do at the current location. On the other hand, it _is_ on a bus line. It's at least worth looking into.

I wasn't so much referring to my own kids per se, but was it the kids from our group being left unattended and getting rowdy or was it other kids in the library being disruptive?

I wouldn't go THAT far. I've greatly enjoyed all the DemiCons I've attended, especially #16 and the one with Spider Robinson (who is a favorite author of mine), and hope they continue, and want to start to help out on future ones. I'm even interested in TICC a bit (I have some story ideas...)

I think there's room enough for all sorts of stuff at DMSFS meetings. We just need people to contribute stuff in other areas besides the cons and events and such, if we want to get and keep new members. I for one will stick around even if things don't change much, as I want to help out as much as I can with DemiCon....but I'll also continue to work for more non-business stuff AT meetings (instead of at dinner) too.

Do we have a meeting programming director? We need one. I volunteer, if we don't. Note that that DOES NOT mean I'll present something at every meeting, though.

Other members need to help out there. Having run other clubs and stuff in the past, the real hard part is getting "programming". Usually it's left to the officers, and that won't cut it folks, especially at DMSFS where there are people with so many different areas of interest in SF&F. We all have to pitch in and provide "programming" for the meetings. Don't think you have nothing to contribute. YOU DO. Everyone does. What most folks ALSO have is a fear of public speaking. I did too, at one time (running a local Macintosh user group back in the '80's cured me of THAT!) so I know the fear. But one thing I'm also QUITE sure of about DMSFS (as opposed to some other clubs and organizations) is that no one's gonna laugh at you or give you a hard time. Quite the reverse...they're the friendliest organization I've EVER encountered.

> I wonder if there are any other options out there for our club to change it's meeting place? I'll go feel out some people at Drake, maybe we can use the auditorium at Harvey Ingham. I have no idea what the response would be, but it's worth a try.

That would be extremely cool (I'm a Drake alum: 1984, B.A. in Computer Science). I wonder if Mike Cheney is still the provost at Drake. He was my journalism prof when I was at Drake, then the provost, and also was an officer and helper at a Macintosh User Group I used to run waaaay back in the 80's. We lost touch many years ago though.

Also, it occurs to me there are likely to be plenty of SF fans around the college we could pull in, AND college kids are a good source of volunteers for things and have plenty of energy (and I think class will be out of session by the time DemiCon rolls around, so that could be another source of volunteers).

(Candy, I like the idea of hanging out at your place in the summer. We could grill, and make it an impromptu star party-book discussion-filk, and boy howdy would your horses get entertained!!! And before anyone starts objecting that it's too far away, my rebuttal is that in the case of DMAS, our observatory is in Ashton-Wildwood park up in the vicinity of Baxter. WE all get together up there, gas price increase or no, because again, we want to. We have been known to carpool!)

Actually....it might be fun to hold a DMSFS session up at Ashton-Wildwood or something. Or at the Drake Observatory. A friend of mine has a nice 'scope and we went up there once to use it. First and only time I'd seen the Milky Way,actually.

Here's another idea for a discussion topic at the meetings: What groups to we all belong to (or have belonged to)? I'm interested in several that have been mentioned so far. Don't even have be SF&F related.

EXACTLY, BILL! This is just what happened with DMAS. EVERYONE contributed, when they felt they had the time and freedom and interest... which we did have.

I'm with you two hundred percent on this! I think if we do get a meeting for purely non-business, non-con kinds of things, we can all brainstorm for what we can all do.

That should take up HOURS...

*snickers*

Laurre

Excuse me???

"Today's science fiction is tomorrow's science fact."

*bristles*

Let's not get anal, folks. I'm still back on the subject of trying to use club time (or at least more of it) for purposes OTHER than strictly club business/cons and thinking that HAVING more club time in general would be greatly conducive to this, and we're weaving all over the place. Ideas being tossed out are IDEAS at the moment, let's not squash them a-borning!

Ann-- great idea. You check the library, I'll check Drake, someone check someplace els, puh-leez!

Laurre

In a message dated 1/30/2006 4:02:20 AM Central Standard Time, mros@ispwest.com writes:

I'm not sure how applicable the Astronomical Society is to DMSFS, at least in terms of interest sharing, unless participants break astronomy down by planet type, star type, quasars, galaxies, or any other subspecialties. In SF&F, there are special interest groups who do not necessarily share interests with other special interest groups (e.g., anime, hard science fiction short stories, romance fantasy novels, space opera movies, costuming) In many ways, I expect DemiCon serves as the shared interest of these sub-groups

Re: Les's input...

Thank you Les! Good points in your message.

I agree that said "topics of discussion beyond those relating to business/cons" need more than just people with ideas, but people willing to PARTICIPATE. I was thinking that major brainstorming re this could be the "topic" at the first non-business get-together (if we ever do get that far, heh) -- I already have beaucoup ideas, as does Andy, and others have been mentioned here -- ideas beyond just book discussions. The sky's the limit, IMHO.

But just another comment: ok, so from day one when the club got together they went critical mass regarding putting on a convention, hehe. Hurrah, for without that we WOULD have had no Demicon! But-- isn't the club's statement of purpose a tri-fold one, with the "running of a convention" being ONE statement, and "the promotion of science fiction in the general public" (ok, I'm stating these in my own words to get the gist across) another?

Seems we're still a bit biased toward one of the three topics (can't remember the third one).

Laurre

I just got this news from Ritual Cafe. It seems to tie in with the "where to meet" discussion. I am *far* too busy to follow up on this, but if someone (Ann?) would like to add it to the list of potential places, it would be nice.

This info is taken directly from the club website as far as to the purpose of our organization.

"The Des Moines Science Fiction Society is a 501(c)(7) organization that seeks to work cooperatively with local individuals, organizations, and media to promote a variety of causes, including: scientific research, space exploration, literacy, and the arts. Persons seeking information on science-, science fiction-, or fantasy-related topics, and organizations looking for additional resources (including volunteers) for similarly-related activities, are invited to contact any club officer or member."

I have seen a lot of great ideas posted to the list over the past few days. All of them have lots of potential, as long as the follow-thru is there. Not only from the person suggesting the item, but from the club as a whole to participate in said activities that strike their interest.

Indeed it would be great to have "Nonbusiness" activities. But each activity needs someone to be responsible for organizing said activity. Perhaps, as Bill stated we need a "Programming" officer.

We have gotten lax in following the bylaws regarding meeting agenda items. At any given meeting, someone during the "New Business" portion of the meeting will say "I just found out about this activity that we might want to participate in, but the deadline to sign up is tomorrow, and it needs club approval because the related fee for participation is $$. According to the bylaws, anyone wishing to present an item on the agenda at a meeting is to contact the club secretary to get said item added to the agenda.

2.0 Sponsorship of Additional Activities. The DMSFS membership may, at any time, decide to sponsor additional activities. The following rules govern the proposal and execution of such activities:

2.2 Members wishing to present a project proposal to the club must petition the club Scribbler to be included in the meeting agenda.

2.3 Project proposals should include the following information, as applicable: goals, procedures, anticipated timeline, required resources, and proposed budget information.

2.4 Any project proposal that requires the use of club funds, or any activity that will be conducted under the DMSFS or DemiCon name, must be approved by the voting membership, as set forth in section V of these by-laws.

2.6 If an activity project is approved, the proposer of the project is responsible for either overseeing the execution of the activity, or finding another person who will accept the responsibility to do so.

. In the years that I have been the club secretary, I have never received in advance a request from anyone for agenda items. Quoting from the bylaws, regarding the duties of the "Scribbler"

3.0 Scribbler. Voting membership must elect a Scribbler, who will perform the following duties:

3.1 Keep a copy of the current by-laws and addendums, and note the need for any amendments to the club.

3.2 Track and announce official calendar events as set forth in these by-laws and addendums, such as elections.

3.3 Coordinate and prepare agendas for each meeting, to be forwarded to the Speaker for execution.

I maintain a copy of the bylaws with me at all meetings. I keep track of when elections, voting on issues, etc. need to take place. However, it is very difficult to set an agenda for a meeting if no one contacts me about items that need to be presented. I also realize that the club, at minimum needs a report from comittees in progress (ie: Costume Con, DemiCon). I also would like to see "fun activities" happen at our club meetings.

Hehe... yeah! Sorry about any implications or innuendoes MY reply may have carried!

Laurre

In a message dated 1/30/2006 12:32:35 PM Central Standard Time, Charis_Doula@worldnet.att.net writes:

Just a note to remind people to send replies on this topic to DMSFS chat- when you hit reply it only goes back to the sender of the e-mail that triggered your reply. We're missing a good bit of the e-mail that triggered Laurre's reply because I think the person that she's responding to only managed to send to her...

*Applauds Sheril and the Omnipotent Written Word*

Thank you for bringing out the black and white for everyone here!

Laurre

Hey, GREAT!

Now... do we need to present this formally in the next meeting (who is going to contact what) or can members just send out tendrils and see what grows?

If the latter -- Ann? You or me...?

Laurre

> I just got this news from Ritual Cafe. It seems to tie in with the "where to meet" discussion. I am *far* too busy to follow up on this, but if someone (Ann?) would like to add it to the list of potential places, itwould be nice.

> -Josh

Checked it out when I dropped off Megan for class this afternoon. Not appropriate. WAY too expensive. Half the budget for ConSuite....

Ok, I have another question: it seems to me that there is some kind of reason why we don't have club dues. I know DSMLS and DMAS both have dues, and both are non-profit organizations.

If we need $$$ to cover the cost of a meeting place, we could have nominal yearly dues which would hopefully cover said cost. (DMAS charges $21 for an individual, I believe, and $30 for family. I think DSMLS charges $10).

Members going to Demicon would pay the difference between dues and convention entrance fees to get into the convention, so THAT income should remain the same.

Just an idea. Thoughts?

Laurre

Hehe, ok, tell me if I'm doing this correctly.

Can we put on the agenda for the next meeting the following topics for discussion:

1. To discuss how we might put our club meetings back more in line with our statement of purpose. (ie: the whole "business" vs. "fun" thing).

2. To discuss options as to other places we might meet.

3. To discuss the option of having a "programming director" for non-business related club events.

I could go on, but I think that's enough for starters...

Laurre

Oh yeah, and here's another one!

4. To discuss the idea of changing the name of the club from "Des Moines Science Fiction Society" to "The Society for the Perpetuation of Demicon."

It is, after all, what seems to be our primary purpose for quite some time...!

Laurre

The bylaws give us permission to charge dues of voting members. However, we are not permitted to charge dues of those members who merely wish to attend meetings, but will not vote on any DMSFS and DemiCon business. In the past, profits from DemiCon and interest on investments have funded spending by DMSFS.

If we find a place we like as a group and there is a fee attached, we'll have to discuss dues. If the place is appropriate enough, I'd be open to reasonable dues.

However, in my opinion, dues would have to remain separate from DemiCon memberships. While I can't speak for DC17, as treasurer for DC18, I would be unwilling to give up hundreds of dollars of income to effectively subsidize the dues for DMSFS voting members who also attend DemiCon. Remember, we're not generating large profits at DemiCon.

May I ask why there's the time crunch at the community center (and if there isn't pardon my misunderstanding)? Our RWA group also gets a room in the community center (the one across the hall with the sink) and we have it for two hours (sometimes 2 1/2) on a Saturday morning. Is it just the timing of the meetings (Fri night?) that is causing the time crunch?

I looked at the Urbandale Library's website -- http://www.urbandalelibrary.org/ They offer meeting rooms free to people, though aren't open at 7pm on a Friday. And I don't know about bus coverage there.

Perhaps we have the right venues at the wrong time?

Just my thoughts....
Mary

Wow, I step away from the computer for a day and a half and look what happens! It is really great to see this topic progressing. I have some thoughts of my own to share, which I'll post shortly, but at this time I want to make some clarifications.

First, as I recall the main reason we quit meeting at the Franklin Avenue Library was scheduling. We couldn't book more than a few weeks at a time and Friday nights were very popular with other groups.

Sheril beat me to another clarification when she mentioned that the by-laws require those wishing to bring topics before the club to give advanced notice. This would help a great deal to organize meetings so they were more efficient. I mention this again because your Klingon president was already moving to enforce this requirement before these discussions began, so you've been warned.

The goals listed in Section II of the by-laws are not ranked in order of importance or emphasis. Section IV of the by-laws does designate that club business is the primary purpose of meetings and that socialization is secondary. Hopefully that helps clarify the perceived conflict between the two sections.

Laurre asked for a "clear and concise" definition of club business. I'm not sure that is possible since club business can encompass anything and everything. Club business includes the more boring and mundane aspects like financial reports, convention planning, event planning, post mortems of these events, etc. It also includes any meeting time activities we deem relevant. That means that book discussions, science demonstrations, guest speakers, etc. are also club business.

Now you see how I earned the title "Demi-Goddess of Specificity"

Sallie

Sallie:
That makes perfect sense. Thanks for clarifying. I know our bird club meets at the botanical center and they do charge for their rooms. What the bird club does is put out a donation cup (and a sign-in sheet, but we wouldn't have to do that), and those who can put fifty cents or so into the cup to cover space costs. Some of us drop in a dollar to cover others, and it's no big deal. Would that be a viable option? Obviously those who cannot afford anything don't have to, but it can be a free will thing with the money held until it's needed to cover such an eventuality?

You know, it seems that the RWA chapters are great at raising money. Story contests, raffle baskets, events, are just a few things I can think of off the top of my head. Perhaps at the next meeting somebody (me or anyone else) could make a motion to form a committee to look into such things. Being a part-ferengi Capricorn, I'd willingly volunteer to be on the committee. It would be nice, even if we had all the free, desirable space we want, to have a rainy day fund.

Mary (running over to the website to make note of when the next meeting is......)

You hit my thought about dues on the head, Sallie. I can appreciate dues as a treasury resource, but I really like the easy-going voiting approach of DMSFS.

This discussion has me remembering back to fandoms of which I was a part a million moons ago. Many people kept repeating they just wanted to have fun, but then they never bothered with the reports to members or discussion of difficult issues and then the fun part went away because everybody ended up being disenchanted with each other. Mind you, I still have friendships from that era, but that is because we share numerous other interests.

Even I like to be that carefree swashbuckler careening through the galaxy on rickety old ships, sweeping the dashing young heir off his throne, and not caring about rules. Alas, then I put the book down and have to become an adult and be responsible. *pout, pout, throw a tantrum, snarl, and pay the bills*

Rose

I'll jump in on the dues subject too.

Les and Rachelle both have excellent points regarding dues. I'd like to add that the last two DemiCons have had operating losses, so funding a meeting place on the club nickle isn't going to happen at this time. However, if we get another hundred people to attend DemiCon then we have a completely different story.

Another thing to consider, you think we have long winded business meetings now. Just throw dues and dues collections into the mix. Now we have to take roll call, bill people, decide what to do to the ones who are in arrears... <hands on side of face and loud wailing>

Sallie

The time crunch is that the West Des Moines Community Center's offical closing time on Friday evening is 8 pm. It costs us $12 an hour if we go past 8. Not an unreasonable amount for such a nice facility. In fact, we do on occasion plan to run late and pay the fee. However, we are very cash poor as a group and can't do that on a regular basis without some way to offset those funds.

Sallie

As promised I'd like to share some thoughts on previous post.

We already have someone responsible for running the meetings and that is the Speaker aka the president. I don't think we need to add another position or officer to handle the scheduling of meeting programming. What we need is people to sign on the dotted line. Those of you that are willing to do activities for the meeting please contact the Scribbler and/or the Speaker and get yourselves on the schedule. Go on what are you waiting for? You can even do it by email just send to info@dmsfs.org.

It would certainly help to have volunteers to do these activities. Being a club officer takes a lot of time. Some of us officers are also ConCom and/or Department Heads. That doesn't leave a lot of time for making additional arrangements. As Bill mentioned you don't need to be an expert to make valuable contributions to the club. If more people would step up to help maybe some of us wouldn't have to wear so many hats at one time.

Les had a good point about no one attending the book discussions. I was the discussion leader for a year and never had more than 3 people, if any, and no one read the selected books. I tried asking for suggestions and picking the classics, but nothing worked. I spent a lot of time reading the books and preparing discussion questions as I'm sure Mike and Josh did also. That's why this post has remained vacant for so long. I for one am not willing to make that kind of investment in planning activities again unless I see evidence that such efforts are supported by the group.

As recently as 2004 we made attempts to change our meeting format. Somewhere around here there's pages of newsprint with "fun" meeting activity suggestions. At one point after DC 15 we even had a sign-up sheet for people to be presenters or organizers of the "fun" meetings. Only one activity resulted from this attempt.

I am encouraged by the discussions here and hope that maybe this time we'll be able to find the right combination of things to make it work. We need to review what about the previous attempts didn't work so we have a better chance of success this time around. We may also need to look at how we've structured ourselves and make some changes that allow us more time to focus on things of interest rather than on just the necessities.

One of the challenges to having "fun" only meetings is that everything the club does must have club approval. This makes it hard to avoid business business altogether at meetings; especially in the fall when we only have one meeting a month in November and December and depending on when ICON falls maybe only one meeting in October. There are just too many things that have to be decided for the club to skip every other meeting let alone a whole quarter of necessary business. I think that is another reason our attempts to change haven't worked out. That and old habits die hard.

Perhaps we might consider delegating the regular logistics of running the club to the board of directors, which is made up of the five elected club officers. They can make the decisions that need to be made in a board meeting. All club members would be welcome to sit in at board meetings and the club could vote to veto any actions taken by the board if it were necessary. Just a thought, trying to come up with ways to free up time for the club as a whole.

The club founders structured things to help us avoid some pitfalls and snares that caught similar groups unaware. It think that is important to remember. Any changes we do make to our procedures need to continue to provide a safe and secure process for the club's continued success.

A different meeting place with a longer time frame might be helpful. It is tough to find some place accessible, with parking, that's big enough and doesn't cost us anything. I'm always on the look out myself. In fact I'm hoping that maybe the new downtown library might have meeting place potential.

Dues don't have to be super high. We can do the same thing DMAS does. I don't think $30 a year for a family is out of line...

In fact, $20 a year isn't out of line either! And I don't know how DSMLS gets by with only $10 dues... although they do have a bazillion members and all members do have to pay to go to the rock and gem show, just like everyone else.

As for as my "pay the difference to get into conventions" thing... my bad. Brain burp! Of course, that would mean losing the $$$ charged for dues, and only having the remainder going into treasury for future demicons and so on. It would make sense to keep Demicon out of it altogether, and we just keep on paying our entry fee per usual. Dues could be nominal and on top of this.

Laurre

In a message dated 1/30/2006 7:45:23 PM Central Standard Time, earthwmn@raccoon.com writes:

Um pardon me, but we need full memberships from EVERYONE to actually be
able to have DemiCon.

In a message dated 1/30/2006 8:00:01 PM Central Standard Time, gsabba@worldnet.att.net writes:

Another thing to consider, you think we have long winded business meetings now. Just throw dues and dues collections into the mix. Now we have to take roll call, bill people, decide what to do to the ones who are in arrears... <hands on side of face and loud wailing>

There ya go! One meeting a month for all this kind of thing, the other for relaxation and discussion of topics of interest and so on.

I really feel that's the way to go, since we could remain where we are and avoid the dues issue altogether... although I am still thinking a $10 individual/$20 family kind of thing is not exorbitant, and could add a little $$$ to the coffers. (And I'm open re assisting with the "billing" and "arrears" issue, using what we did at DMAS as a template. It was never that big of a deal, actually.) As with all clubs, those people who pay their dues can vote on club business... er, I mean issues... er, whatever you want to call it.

*digs into Thesaurus*

Laurre

In a message dated 1/30/2006 8:43:47 PM Central Standard Time, gsabba@worldnet.att.net writes:

One of the challenges to having "fun" only meetings is that everything the club does must have club approval.

Wow. I didn't realize we were so durned "rules n' regs restrained."

I hate to keep going back to DMAS, but really, that club runs great. The first 15-20 minutes or so are open to business. Then the floor is open. I was always surprised by how willing people are to fill that empty floor; I believe because they aren't "forced" to fill it by being some kind of "duly elected/appointed whosis" to "direct things."

Things are free and flow naturally. And people learn from each other. I've been sitting here trying to figure out just what it is that makes it work there; hopefully I can come up with something more concrete that might be applicable here.

Laurre

> Dues don't have to be super high. We can do the same thing DMAS does. I don't think $30 a year for a family is out of line...

That depends entirely on the family. I would vote against it, if it came up, even though I'm sure our family could manage it. Too many others, including students, couldn't justify the expense. We're already concerned that we're not drawing in new members, especially teens and college age folks , and I think dues would be a major turn-off to that demographic.

Some are already complaining about the cost of dinner as it is, and with a restaurant dinner at least they get tangible benefits. I know I felt that dinner wasn't in the family budget last week, so I came to the meeting, ordered a soda, and made sure that I ate before I left home. Wasn't a terribly difficult work-around. Perhaps we could consider changing club meetings to restaurants that have meeting rooms that they don't charge for _all_ the time. If a few people can't afford/choose not to eat in a given week, as long as the establishment is serving the majority of people, I bet they wouldn't have a problem with it.
The fact is that I don't know of any other SF Club with the possible exception of LASFS that charges dues (which is not to say that I know _all_ the clubs in the US, but I do have a fairly wide range of exposure) and LASFS owns a clubhouse, whereas we don't have the responsibility for real property. There are many ways to avoid being put in a situation in which dues are mandatory for meeting space. Currently we're using one of those options, and I suspect that there are others. I do know that other clubs do some fund-raising activities. Does our tax status prevent that?

But do we meet to eat??? I mean, is that a necessary item? An integral part of the club's purpose?

I know it's fun, but it NEVER was "part n' parcel" of the other clubs I've ever belonged to. Afterward, if anyone WANTED to go out and eat, FINE. No biggie. But there was NEVER any angst re "I don't know if I can afford to go out to eat this week or not..."

Laurre

> In a message dated 1/30/2006 11:28:15 PM Central Standard Time, Charis_Doula@worldnet.att.net writes:
> But do we meet to eat??? I mean, is that a necessary item? An integral part of the club's purpose?

> I know it's fun, but it NEVER was "part n' parcel" of the other clubs I've ever belonged to. Afterward, if anyone WANTED to go out and eat, FINE. No biggie. But there was NEVER any angst re "I don't know if I can afford to go out to eat this week or not..."
>

To my knowledge eating has NEVER been required post meeting. Eating wasn't required at this last meeting either, as I demonstrated by not eating, and not getting kicked out of the meeting. Any angst felt over one or two people who decline to eat for whatever reason is unnecessary- by either them or the club. I didn't feel guilty. Besides- generally we go out _after_ the meeting. It just so happened that Buffet City had a large enough room to handle us meeting there while we ate.
Ann

I'll try to check the Urbandale and Johnston libraries (I know Johnston has meeting rooms, but that's all I know). I may not get to it until this weekend or next week though (extra busy week at work because it's month-end PLUS I'm attending a training class all week and don't have much time), so if someone else wants to do it, feel free. Not even sure where the Johnston Library is. The Urbandale Library is at 86th and Douglas (well, almost) so it's probably on a bus line. They also have (last I heard) a nice little restaurant associated with it as well, but I haven't been there for a couple of years and that may have changed.

However, it was held at the Roths' home and often ran long. In addition to that, some guests just don't know when to go home. So we started going out for dinner as a continuation of the social aspect of the meetings but also as an escape from the folks that stayed a bit overlong.

And, no, we are often among those who cannot afford to eat but still enjoy the socializing so I have never felt obliged to eat or guilty if I didn't. My only preference is that we choose a restaurant where I can spend as much or as little as I wish.

BTW I am thrilled beyond words about the discussions taking place regarding how to make DMSFS more appealing. Even when I was the one conducting the meetings, I understood how exceptionally boring they were! There are lots of things that our members can contribute, not
necessarily sf or fantasy related. Pet care, gardening, crafts, building kites, cooking for a crowd, jewelry making, graphic novel collecting, horse training ... any of those interesting? We have members who participate in all of those things. I'm sure I missed several dozens areas of interest. Scratch your head and come up with some more ideas. Maybe at the next meeting, we can brainstorm and come up with a list of ideas and a corresponding list of people who can talk to us on their interests.

Hey, I'm game! THANK YOU SUSAN for pointing out the hidden skills possessed by all! Like I said, how can a free floor stay empty if everyone is open and willing to contribute? There have sure been a lot of suggestions floating around in this chat today!

Nighty night!

Laurre

Well, yes, Urbandale and Johnston are on bus lines, if you are in rush hour and going into downtown Des Moines for work, or home from that 8 to 4:30 job. What we need are malls that develop a sense of civic responsibility and build a community rooms amid all the shops so non-profit groups can meet for free.

Rose

I agree Ann, lack of dues is one of the great things about this club. Dues would not keep the meetings from being all business either. Only the group can do that. I would gladly give presentation of some kind if I had something everyone wanted to here about. but my areas of expertise are not science fiction related.

If you are willing to go off topic, I would be glad to give a talk on Reining. My horse sport of choice

If we extrapolate the concept that big events and cultural activites bring inhabitants, then we can imagine a growing moon colony that wants to expand population to expand its job base. Think what would be required to run a rodeo in a habitat dug into the moon's interior. Suddenly, reining
(whatever that may be) is science fiction related.

Dues are a bad idea. I know at least one person who'd drop out of both the club and DemiCon, if the club starts charging dues.

> I was going by what you mentioned in the prior email. And who brought up Buffet City?
> I didn't.

> Laurre

No, you mentioned eating seeming to be a required part of the meeting, which at Buffet City, because we actually met there may have caused it to seem required when it actually wasn't.

> I agree Ann, lack of dues is one of the great things about this club. Dues would not keep the meetings from being all business either. Only the group can do that. I would gladly give presentation of some kind if I had something everyone wanted to here about. but my areas of expertise are not science fiction related.

Herein lies _my_ problem, and, I suspect something that would be a problem for others. I don't go to an SF club to talk about things not in some way SF related. I like to hear about books, films, and cons. While I find horses interesting (what former teenage girl doesn't?) it's not something I would expect to be discussed at an SF club meeting. That's what we have the social hour afterwards for. 4-H does it that way- boring club business first, food and chat later. MnStf did it sort of like that- a meeting at a private home with dinner excursions starting after the business meeting was announced at around 5 pm (accompanied by calls of "Run away! Run away!). Mostly what that was was the President making announcements that the Board had decided about. And none of the social meetings were at all structured. Games and music could break out, or not. People just milled about and kept themselves entertained with....well, each other. That's what I've always liked about fandom- our apparent infinite ability to work to entertain ourselves be it with socializing, fanac, general silliness, or sercon. I've often commented at a group activity, such as at Michael and Candy's how we're (fen) the only group of people I know who will drive 40 miles or more just to sit around and read together.
Rose wrote:

> Hang around a bunch of writers and no topic is "not science fiction related."
>
> If we extrapolate the concept that big events and cultural activites bring inhabitants, then we can imagine a growing moon colony that wants to expand population to expand its job base. Think what would be required to run a rodeo in a habitat dug into the moon's interior. Suddenly, reining
> (whatever that may be) is science fiction related.

While this is certainly true, when we start structuring conversations like this after a presentation of some sort, it does two things. First, it starts feeling like homework. The best conversations like this that I've heard have been spontaneous. When they are, people interested in the topic can drift in and out as they wish. Second, when they take place at a meeting, those without something to add, or with no interest in the topic sit around feeling left out, bored, or worse, excluded. Or possibly wondering, "I thought this was supposed to be an SF group. What the heck are they talking about reining horses for?"

Maybe whoever made the suggestion about running DMSFS with a board had it right- maybe we should turn the meetings into social gatherings at which a member of the board is given 5-10 minutes to present things that the board has taken action on, and things that the board is seeking input from club members on. Those interested in the mechanics of running DMSFS or DemiCon would be free to attend the Board Meetings and ConCom meetings if they wish, otherwise they could turn DMSFS meetings into whatever they wished meeting by meeting. When the responsibility for your own entertainment is dropped into your lap, you can't blame anyone else if you have a boring time. On the business side of things, if you choose not to participate in running things, you don't really have much room to complain about how things turn out.

We also need peace on earth and good will toward man, but we're not going to get that either.

If there is someone who needs a ride to meetings, why not get together a carpool? I'm willing to grab a couple peeps or so--!

Laurre

In a message dated 1/31/2006 5:57:28 AM Central Standard Time, mros@ispwest.com writes:

In a message dated 1/31/2006 9:08:29 AM Central Standard Time, Charis_Doula@worldnet.att.net writes:

I've often commented at a group activity, such as at Michael and Candy's how we're (fen) the only group of people I know who will drive 40 miles or more just to sit around and read together.

And the DMAS people will drive fifty to look at the stars, so we are not all that unique.

We are unique in that we do NOT charge dues, but then we whoopdedoo on and on about being short of funds. Dues are a means for clubs to have some ready cash, and AGAIN, $20 is NOT an outrageous fee to charge ONCE A YEAR. Good grief, I spend more than that monthly on who knows what. I'm sure others do as well. AND while I keep throwing out this $20 AS AN EXAMPLE, we don't have to charge that. $10 a year is more than reasonable, and a $20- $30 a year FAMILY rate is great, especially if you have a large family that belongs to the club.

Sheesh, why all this knee-jerk reactivity against dues? It's plain silly not to have them, if we're a club. I've often thought that it was strange that we didn't have any.

Laurre

Ok, I've been scouring my braincells, and I have a glimmering of a concept here...

I think one of the reasons that DMAS flows so freely, and attracts so many members (primarily word of mouth, although some come from the Drake Observatory sessions...) is that after business, when the floor is open, it is open to SHARING rather than PRESENTING. This is a time when people come forward with everything and anything remotely having anything to do with astronomy that they want to SHARE. It's a "give" situation, not one bound by rules and regs and sign-up sheets.

It's something to consider, everyone... As I said, all ideas are good ones, thank you Rose for bringing up your two cent's worth in this arena.

Wow-- freefall reining. Can you imagine...?

Laurre

One final reason I believe we should have dues, even if they are nominal ones (ie: raising funds for the club in this manner set aside momentarily...)

Someone wrote in their two cent's worth regarding science fiction conventions. Now, the conventions weinvolve ourselves with seem to revolve around a big aspect of science fiction: books. But books, while being a LARGE part, are not the only category in the world of sci-fi, which we all know. And conventions, while seeming to lean in that direction, are even a smaller aspect of fandom when considered as a whole.

Anyway, this person said s/he didn't really care for conventions, and hadn't gone to any and from the gist of the email it didn't sound as if s/he ever would.

Now: is it fair that ONLY convention-goers are allowed to vote on club business, which according to our statement of purpose is supposed to cover other items beyond just Demicon?

Yeah, yeah... so they can pay the $40 or whatever and not go to the convention, but boy howdy NOW we're talking pricey dues!

(Oh yeah, and if you want to hear pricey, check out the Moingona Hunt Club. Their yearly dues are $700!!! Again, I would like to see us do something along the lines of DMAS: YEARLY DUES: $20 for individual, $30 for family, students and seniors get a break, I dunno, say $12 a year? Oh yeah, it's prorated for NEW members. And it's dealt with in the year's BIGGIE BUSINESS meeting in January.)

I do believe we need dues to separate us out as the entity we are supposed to be: Des Moines Science Fiction Society. Otherwise, I think a better name would STILL be "The Society for the Perpetuation of Demicon..."

Laurre

> In a message dated 1/31/2006 9:08:29 AM Central Standard Time, Charis_Doula@worldnet.att.net writes:
>
> And the DMAS people will drive fifty to look at the stars, so we are not all that unique.

Well, there is a difference- I can easily read at home. I _can't_ easily stargaze living in the city. My point was more that we'll go a great distance just for each other's company, not necessarily because of an activity.

> We are unique in that we do NOT charge dues, but then we whoopdedoo on and on about being short of funds. Dues are a means for clubs to have some ready cash, and AGAIN, $20 is NOT an outrageous fee to charge ONCE A YEAR. Good grief, I spend more than that monthly on who knows what. I'm sure others do as well. AND while I keep throwing out this $20 AS AN EXAMPLE, we don't have to charge that. $10 a year is more than reasonable, and a $20- $30 a year FAMILY rate is great, especially if you have a large family that belongs to the club.

We are not unique in this, as I have already pointed out. I don't know of another SF group that charges dues other than LASFS, which owns a club house.

> Sheesh, why all this knee-jerk reactivity against dues? It's plain silly not to have them, if we're a club. I've often thought that it was strange that we didn't have any.
> Laurre

If you'd like to pay dues, please feel free. I'm sure the treasurer would be happier to take your donation.... It may be knee jerk in that none of us has ever had to pay them, and that was a conscious decision at the outset of the founding of the club. People have been willing to put effort into ensuring that dues are not necessary by doing the legwork to find free meeting space.

> Now: is it fair that ONLY convention-goers are allowed to vote on club business, which according to our statement of purpose is supposed to cover other items beyond just Demicon?

There is no requirement that you be a member of DemiCon to vote on DMSFS business. By our bylaws, if we charge dues, you must pay dues to vote. But since we don't pay dues, there is no such requirement. All you have to do is show up to a meeting and demonstrate that you have at least the intelligence of a small soap dish. (Though I believe that the last requirement has been removed from our bylaws.)

1) If you have too much money, and would like the club to have some, give it to the club.
2) If you have too much time, and would like the club to be more fun, give it to the club.
3) If you do not have too much time or money, do not give anything to the club, but understand that by making the choice to not invest in the club, you also lose the right to complain about how the club is run.

Personally, I am in a place right now where both my time and money are tied up in other activities. I will help out as needed, but I simply can not volunteer much of either to the club. As such, I recognize that I can't complain about the direction that people take things.

Like most things in life, this is an investment. If you want to get something out of it, you have to put something into it. We, as a group, have both time and money, so we have solutions. One things we can *not* do, in my opinon, is to force anyone to donate something that they do not want to. Forcing anyone to give up either time or money is a great way to drive people away, not pull them in.

Sorry if I hurt anyone's feelings here, but this is how I see it. Feel free to discuss with me at the next meeting (if I can make it), or the next time you see me (if I manage to stay in one place long enough).

>can do that. I would gladly give presentation of some kind if I had something everyone wanted to here about. but my areas of expertise are not science fiction related.

>> Candy

Candy,
I would LOVE to have you give a presentation on your horses, or showing, or training. I know Susan mentioned it, and heck, I wrote a series of articles called Horses in Fantasy. It might be fun to sit down and talk about those horses in books that live on "sunlight and air" and inject a little reality
into the prose (if you HAVE to tie it into sci fi). If nothing else, it's fascinating.

Mary (who is going to the gym, err...barn, every night after work to try and
slim down both herself and her horse...)

>
> Er...and _how_ many SF/fantasy stories feature horses in some capacity or other? When I was at BucConEer in Baltimore (Worldcon 1998) Madeleine dragged me to a panel about horses---and I learned a lot of stuff that I hadn't known, such as that the artist who did the painting for the first _Wheel of Time_ cover hadn't known jack about horse body language---the big horse that Lan is riding is saying, via body language "I'm about to run away RIGHT NOW!!!" Or at least that's how I remember it.
>
> Fantasy has horses, and I can think of one Hugo- and Nebula-winning writer of SF whose SF stories have included horses, namely, Lois McMaster Bujold.
>
> Me, I'd be interested to hear Candy tell us which authors have Been There/Done That with horses, and know what they're writing about, and which ones strike her as talking through their hats.
>
Eric-
Either you're missing my point, or I simply didn't make it very well. What I was trying to suggest is that such conversations not be part of the business meeting. They're great for the social part of the meeting, and as part of a social time can be much less structured and formal- if you're not interested in a particular topic you can just wander off and find another or start a side conversation. That way if there is a large contingent that _isn't_ interested, they're not hijacked into sitting in on a conversation they don't find stimulating. During a social meeting such conversations are fine, but they're a big part of what tend to drag out our business meetings. Maybe a format something like this would help:

1. Brief announcements by President regarding Board doings (assuming we changed things a bit and went with a Board that made all the business decisions)
1b. Votes on issues if required
2. Floor open to personal announcements- important life events, party plans, convention reports, etc.
3. President announces "Soandso has agreed to lead a discussion during social time on Topic X. When we arrive wherever we're having dinner, if you have interest in that topic, hunt them down at their table."
4. Adjourn business meeting for social time.

The down side to this is hurt feelings on the part of someone who works hard on a topic, and then gets stiffed during social time. The downside to doing it during the main meeting is having a larger number of people bored by a topic that they're not interested in because they're sitting in what amounts to a classroom environment and are being _told_ what they're going to talk about rather than just hearing an interesting conversation that they gravitate towards. That being said, if you're
ever bored during a conversation usually it's your own fault, although I can think of a couple of individuals in fandom who stretch that theory to the limit.... (None of them in DMSFS of course!)

>> There is no requirement that you be a member of DemiCon to vote on DMSFS business. By our bylaws, if we charge dues, you must pay dues to vote. But since we don't pay dues, there is no such requirement. All you have to do is show up to a meeting and demonstrate that you have at least the
>> intelligence of a small soap dish. (Though I believe that the last requirement has been removed from our bylaws.)

I was misunderstanding in that I thought that to be a "member" of DMSFS you go to Demicon. Dues to Demicon assure a membership to DSMSFS.

Perhaps I got that part wrong!??

Laurre

In a message dated 1/31/2006 9:39:31 PM Central Standard Time, Charis_Doula@worldnet.att.net writes:

The downside
to doing it during the main meeting is having a larger number of people bored by a topic that they're not interested in because they're sitting in what amounts to a classroom environment and are being _told_ what they're going to talk about rather than just hearing an interesting conversation that they gravitate towards.

Which is precisely why in DMAS meetings, when the "floor was opened..." IT WAS OPENED.

No "pre-assigned" presentations or classroom stuff. It flowed naturally from pure mutual interest.

I can't figure out why that doesn't happen here.

In a message dated 1/31/2006 9:41:59 PM Central Standard Time, bryan@bogonomicon.com writes:

Les Roth wrote:
> There is no requirement that you be a member of DemiCon to vote on DMSFS business. By our bylaws, if we charge dues, you must pay dues to vote. But since we don't pay dues, there is no such requirement. All you have to do is show up to a meeting and demonstrate that you have at least the
intelligence of a small soap dish. (Though I believe that the last requirement has been removed from our bylaws.)

I can think of a bowl of "something..."

Anyway, isn't that kind of loose? I mean, according to that just ANYBODY off the street can come in and vote on our business! Not of course that I can see that happening, since dragging in MORE people off the street is something we're all striving for, but really...

Laurre

According to our bylaws, anyone who shows up to meetings is welcome to vote. Of course we change them at the next SACC.

Whoa, now why does that whole statement seem inherently wrong? Seems like taking a tad wee advantage of Hoyle!

Laurre

Actually, to be a voting member you must have attended at least one meeting in the last 6 months, be at least 13 earth standard years old, have your dues paid in full (not applicable since we don't have dues) and yes you must still have at least the I.Q. of a small soap dish.

Sallie

Okay guys I see a couple of potential navigational hazards to changing the course of our meetings. If we are going to have interesting meetings we are going to have to be flexible _and_ open minded. Let's look at a couple of things.

Meeting format - There is not one format that will work all the time. All suggestions that have been made so far would be workable some of the time. There are times when it would be fun to wing it and have no set plan for what will be talked about or how. There are other times when we will want
to know what we are planning so we can publish these topics on community calendars and perhaps draw in new folks.

Meeting topics/discussion/activities - Just as no one meeting format will always work, there isn't a topic, book or activity that will interest everyone in the club all the time. There will be times when you may not be interested in the topic of the evening. Fine, but the presenter who has volunteered to be your entertainment for the evening deserves at least your polite attention. After all next time the topic may be right up your alley.
Besides you never know, you may find a new interest or discover a new author.

How many of us are willing to put forth the time and energy to make some sort of presentation just to have no one participate? Not me, been there, done that, I'd rather spend my resources on things I know will be appreciated.

Now folks you have an example of why our previous attempts have not worked. We want something different, people step up to provide it, no one comes, so volunteers give up and we're now back to square one.

Our best bet is to keep as much variety as possible. Anything that becomes status quo no matter how fun it was to start with looses its luster after awhile. Mixing things up some keeps everything fresh.

In a message dated 2/1/2006 1:09:42 PM Central Standard Time, sabba@moingonagirlscouts.org writes:

Yes, but for a long time it has seemed stale! People have stated words to this effect in previous emails, so I won't bother to repeat.

AGAIN-- I think there are times NOT to have something pre-secheduled, pre-ordained, allotted, assigned, whatever. We DON'T necessarily need sigh-up sheets... this only leads to one person putting in a lot of work on whatever subject that might not be something others want to hear, so then said person feels embarrassed or upset that hard work is gone down the tubes.

ONCE MORE I'm repeating that in the DMAS meetings THERE IS NOTHING PREORDAINED. NO SCHEDULED ACTIVITIES IN THE MEETINGS. We have open forum time, and everyone is free to ask whatever, present whatever. IT'S A PERSONAL CHOICE and as I keep saying, you'd be surprised at how that open floor gets filled.

Now, in the case of DMAS we DO have our public nights, which is one way new blood is drawn into the club. Those nights of course have "preordained" speakers, those who volunteer to present something.

Maybe as Sallie says, a mix? We need to loosen up -- A LOT. Perhaps we can have open forums in which ideas and so on are tossed back and forth, where pictures or knowledge can be shared on WHATEVER, where questions about ANYTHING sci-fi can be brought freely out... and also at this time where people who have a special skill or interest might volunteer to "present" it at another meeting. We would not be held to "ok, somebody's gotta present something!!" but rather "when this happens, it's nice. Otherwise it's that special step prior to true anarchy.

But club time has to be allotted to it, and since our club time at the moment is so short, why not split it between the two nights that we do meet every month?

Oh yeah, is there a reason we're not meeting the alternate Fridays instead of the ones that we do? Would meeting on alternate Fridays free up a second meeting date during those months where for some reason we only meet once?

Orr-- those "one meeting a month" Fridays could be a mix of both formats.

Laurre

> <snip>
> Meeting topics/discussion/activities - Just as no one meeting format will
> always work, there isn't a topic, book or activity that will interest
> everyone in the club all the time. <snip>
>
> Our best bet is to keep as much variety as possible. Anything that becomes
> status quo no matter how fun it was to start with looses its luster after
> awhile. Mixing things up some keeps everything fresh.
>
>
>
Do Les and Jeannette still have the fishbowl? We could bring that out for a few meetings...

Fishbowl??? As in, perhaps, topics of discussion being drawn from a hat kind of thing?

Laurre

Isn't it easier to just bring up a topic on the spot? At least then the person generating said topic is present, and by generating it, shows an interest, as opposed to, say, the topic being drawn is one no one cares about or none ever get drawn that are.

I say there comes a time where clubs have to be allowed the freedom to run themselves, if only for a little bit. Not every horse needs a bridle, right Candy?

Laurre

> Isn't it easier to just bring up a topic on the spot? At least then the person generating said topic is present, and by generating it, shows an interest, as opposed to, say, the topic being drawn is one no one cares about or none ever get drawn that are.
>
> I say there comes a time where clubs have to be allowed the freedom to run themselves, if only for a little bit. Not every horse needs a bridle, right Candy?
>
> Laurre
>

That's the entire point. This _is_ the club running itself, and it _is_ bringing a topic up on the spot. Folks generate topics that evening and draw. You can save "leftover" topics or not. Since we have much the same crowd each meeting, chances are good that the originator will be there if/when it comes up again. It's no worse than making arrangements for someone to do a presentation. If the topic bombs, you just move on to the next one. If a presentation bombs, you've got a bunch of bored people and one person feeling badly that their efforts weren't as well received as they would have liked. This has the potential for everyone interacting. The only problem the club used to have was that the slips were getting used up faster than people were writing them- they'd go to draw another topic, and sometimes the cupboard was bare. I wasn't a member of the club when they used to do this, but really the only limitation on something like this is the intelligence of the attendees. Unless you're perhaps suggesting that as a group we're less intelligent now than we were during the early 90's.... I dunno- wasn't here til '97 myself. I may have contributed to a brain drain.

To me (on one hand) that's not allowing for the freedom of people generating something of interest by themselves. Reliance is upon something drawn from a fishbowl... which if said topics are placed there at the time of the meeting is good and are a means of generation. If topics have already been in there from who knows when, then maybe not so good, those who initially placed them there may be long gone.

But still, we're relying on someone/something guiding us. Can we ever be allowed space to take baby steps and go it alone? Open floor is open floor, where all are free to ask this or bring up that, even though it more than likely will need a goodly amount of time to assert itself fully. It's the fishbowl without the bowl.

Cricket noises aside...

Not really, but wow. Now I know the possibility exists...

*evil grin*

Laurre

In a message dated 2/1/2006 12:24:27 PM Central Standard Time, les@trans-iowa.org writes:

According to our bylaws, anyone who shows up to meetings is welcome to vote. Of course we change them at the next SACC.

Ok, wow, judging from all the emails since Saturday I'd say a veritable hornet's nest has been stirred up. What's to come flying out from it?-- who's to say.

I'll wager this Friday's is a GOOD meeting to come and let your voices be heard. Especially those of you who have commented on how we're "all con" and so forth --

NOW'S THE CHANCE.

I hope this Friday will have a LOT of people in attendance!

Laurre

Thank you Sallie, I just realized the error. I am just so attuned to most clubs meeting on the first Friday or Saturday of the month only! Then I get into the "every other weekend" thing, and the last meeting didn't seem like a meeting, so I got discombobulated.

Hehe.

OK, CALLING ALL PEEPS TO NEXT FRIDAY, FEBRUARY 10!!!

Laurre

I'd be there, but I'll be at Capricon with Les and Rachelle.... promoting DemiCon...

And just to remind those who'd like to see DMSFS blow off DemiCon, here's a brief reminder of how stuff stan